S2E8 - Eamonn Carey, Managing Director @ Techstars

Eamonn Carey is the Managing Director at Techstars, a global platform that connects entrepreneurs, investors and corporations. Away from Techstars Eamonn also operates as an Angel Investor, which has seen him invest in over 50 companies. His expertise and knowledge has seen him invited to speak at conferences all around the world including Web Summit, Collision, SXSW and Mobile World Congress as well as many more. 

James and Hector sat down with the former journalist to discuss his transition from media to VC, what continues to motivate him to do the work he does and what new trends we can expect to see in future early stages. 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] James: Hello, and welcome to episode eight of riding unicorns, the podcast that celebrates high growth startups. So to this week, we've got Eamonn Carey on what are you excited to hear from him

[00:00:21] Hector: about? I'm excited about very many things. but I think, it's gonna be interesting hearing about a man's journey, partly because he started.

[00:00:31] As a journo, which is something that we've seen a fair bit in VC. And I'm curious to understand what it is, in terms of shared characteristics, between people who are journos and who become VCs and what are the things that make a person good at both? I'm also, I'm really excited to hear about Edelman's thoughts on accelerated more generally. The seed stages. Tagline is demo day without the [00:01:00] accelerator thesis being demo days are the most valuable part of an accelerator and you don't need the program in the run up to it.

[00:01:06] So I'm sure that Amy has tons of thoughts around it. , and may also share the sort of excitement around the democratisation of early stage and how we as accelerators and programs, initiatives, like the seed stage can make it easier for founders to find funding from the perfect investor

[00:01:25] James: hundred percent.

[00:01:26] Well, let's bring him in.

[00:01:27] Welcome to ride a unicorns, Eamonn

[00:01:33] Eamonn Carey: Thank you very much. It's it's great to be here.

[00:01:36] James: We always like to start by getting people's kind of career today and how you ended up

[00:01:40] Eamonn Carey: at Techstars, for sure. So I, started out as a journalist. Actually I studied journalism in college because it had the.

[00:01:48] Fewest number of hours of any of the courses that I looked at. And, I was trying to be a rockstar back then and playing in a band and all that kind of stuff. So I've studied journalism and ended up working for a couple of radio stations and newspapers and others.[00:02:00] But had always been interested in tech, right?

[00:02:02] So I'd learned how to code when I was pretty young, had had Ataris and Amigos and PCs as I grew up. And so. Started noticing opportunities, particularly around the intersection of content and technology. And in particular, took a trip to Korea in 2004 and saw how people were using their mobile phones there and consuming content.

[00:02:20] And like, even back then, I remember walking through a mall and seeing a bunch of people sitting around watching someone placed like watching TV and on the TV was sort of playing StarCraft. Right. Going like this was a mind blowing experience, like somebody wandered into the future. And so I came back from that go.

[00:02:35] Mobile phones are going to be like bigger than anything. And the people who can figure out the right type of content to deliver on them standard do pretty well. And so I quit my job and started my first company, basically building stuff for mobile content, apps, websites, kind of you, you name it.

[00:02:50] We did it. We just used to joke with people now that like, we just used to say yes, the last, like, can you do. Yes. And then we would go and find a freelancer to do it for us. But built up business in [00:03:00] Ireland and the UK and did some work out in the middle east and Asia. And exited that and then had a Facebook games company with some friends that we were also looking to exit.

[00:03:10] And from there kind of education company that I ran directly into a brick wall which was a great learning experience painful but was starting to get emails from, from other founders going, Hey, we're doing our first B2B sales, or we're thinking about expanding into our first international market.

[00:03:25] Can you help? And so started taking more meetings with other founders and eventually. Matt actually another fender from Ireland, who's running a company called tastebuds. That was going through, the springboard program in Cambridge. I think this was 2011 or 12. And through them, got to know John Bradford, who was the person who brought Techstars to London.

[00:03:44] So joined initially as a mentor, on the London program and loved the experience of kind of helping companies. And then. Invested in one or two companies became an entrepreneur in residence. Cause I was trying to figure out that I want to start another company. And I think basically I hung around long enough that eventually they offered me a [00:04:00] gig in Techstars.

[00:04:00] So almost exactly five years ago, five years ago this week, I started formally running one of our programs at, in New York and have been with, Techstars ever since moving back to London to run the program here in 2018. So it's been. Good journey. You've found her and fan of companies to still being a founder and a fan of companies, but now with the additional resources of Techstars to back them with yeah,

[00:04:23] James: fascinating well, and, explained in a very humble manner, but you've had a lot of success for those that don't know.

[00:04:30] Maybe you could just give a quick oversight of what Techstars is and how you describe it in your own.

[00:04:36] Eamonn Carey: For sure. Yeah. So effectively, Techstars is the world, the wide network that helps entrepreneurs succeed. And what we want to try and do is help people at every stage of their journey from kind of inspiration to, to IPL.

[00:04:48] I thought very earliest stage. We run startup weekend and startup week and lots of, free programming. And we have a kind of online entrepreneurs toolkit for people who are thinking about starting companies. We run a bet, a thousand [00:05:00] startup weekend events around the world every year. Most of them obviously virtually now, but hopefully over the next while getting back to in-person, And those are, you go, you pitch an idea, you form a team, you build an MTP over, over 48 hours.

[00:05:11] And probably a quarter of the companies that come together are those startup weekend is go on to become actual businesses. We then run accelerator programs, but 50 of them now around the world where we take in 10 to 12 companies at a time, we invest up to $120,000 into each company.

[00:05:28] And we put them through a three month accelerator program where we connect. Investors and advisors and mentors and founders who've been there and done that and helped them squeeze two or three years worth of experience into , a three month process and then continue to support them as they grow and scale from there.

[00:05:46] And then we have, a VC funded sits alongside that and does some, investing into companies that have graduated out of those accelerator programs. So Techstars started back in 2000 and. Six in, in Boulder, that's gonna be going for 15 [00:06:00] years. We've invested now in close to 3000 companies, around the world and are increasing that number at about 500 new companies every year at the moment, across multiple sectors, everywhere from us, Europe, Asia, middle east, and, and lots more to come actually over the next week.

[00:06:16] I just noted

[00:06:17] Hector: that, you started off in journalism and, I wonder whether there's something funny about journalists and something about the job, That appeals to VCs, whether it's a shared skillset, because obviously Karen at Ascension is also an extra. And I wonder if there's shared scales or whether there's an, the same appeal between BC and journalism.

[00:06:35] Yeah.

[00:06:35] Eamonn Carey: It's, it's interesting. There's quite a few people who've traveled the path from, from journalism to VC. I think, part of it. Yeah. To be a good journalist. You have to know how to ask questions. And then obviously there are big parts of, of being a VC is asking questions and knowing the right ones to ask the other big parts of being a journalist is whether it's that you have to one of the advantages, I suppose, that I have.

[00:06:56] Particularly from doing radio is, you have to really [00:07:00] listen. Like you have to become a very active listener. And I think one of the things that I've learned from doing that is like, when people give you answers, they're very frequently telling you like 10 X more than what's the words that are coming out of their mouth.

[00:07:12] And sometimes it's the intonation. Sometimes it's, the pauses and phrasing, like it's all of these little things. Subtle nuances that you can sometimes derive some information from. And I think the other thing then is, journalists don't by any stretch of the imagination, have a kind of monopoly on this, but there is a level of kind of intellectual curiosity that I think is common to journalists and VCs because, even if I look at my own portfolio, I have everything from.

[00:07:37] Talking cats that send letters to children to teach them how to read and write to drone operations software for complex environments. Right. And one of the great joys as you guys will know from doing this job is that, you go and you meet some incredible deep tech company building something.

[00:07:52] Barely understand. And you're like, this is incredible. Like I want to dig in on this a little bit more. And so you download a bunch of podcasts. You buy a book, you read a bunch of articles [00:08:00] and blogs, you go back and then your next conversation, you sound slightly more informed, but you're constantly learning and constantly.

[00:08:07] Seeing patterns between the challenges that different companies have. And I think that kind of curiosity and, question asking and listening is something that kind of being a journalist for, whatever it was not very long four or five years, it was long enough for me to at least build the foundations if that's okay.

[00:08:24] Yeah. And

[00:08:24] Hector: you have one of the most enviable networks in the business, and I guess that's something that's useful for journos as well. Probably.

[00:08:30] Eamonn Carey: Yeah. You're always kind of like, I never quite got to, like house of cards or whatever, the kind of best TV show vet journalists ever has been like where I was frantically texting sources or anything like this, but you, you do have to learn how to.

[00:08:41] Cultivate, a wide range of, of people that you talk to. And, I think it's also, I think one of the lessons that transcends a whole bunch of different careers, whether it be journalism or VC, but, but one lesson that I've always tried to tell other people who are starting out, others, founders or investors, is it's nice to be nice. And it's much easier to [00:09:00] have a big network and try and be collaborative. 'cause it's it's far easier to do that than it is to have really sharp elbows. One of the reasons I don't know that I would ever make the leap to being a growth stage. Investor is that like, I don't know that I would be good at being in a deal where I have to like literally shank someone to, get the ability to write a check into, into a company.

[00:09:20] Like I'd much rather see if there's ways to build collaboration and coalition. And, and that's where that network has come from. Initially when I started out as an investor, I was like, I would go to the opening of an envelope if I thought I would meet someone interesting there.

[00:09:34] So I would go and speak at every conference and event and university. From the tiniest little place that no one ever heard of in, in Eastern Europe to, bigger ones and you just build a network and try as best you can to be nice to people within reason. And in my experience, it comes back 10 times.

[00:09:51] Yeah. How

[00:09:52] Hector: important do you think that work is in BC?

[00:09:55] Eamonn Carey: I think VCs overestimate a lot of the time, like I, I [00:10:00] talk to people a lot and they're like, oh yeah, we have to have this proprietary deal flow. And it's kinda like, if you think there's such a thing anymore maybe if you're, if you're, Todd from TransferWise, your proprietary deals that were all the other people coming in to TransferWise and starting new companies, they'll talk to other people as well.

[00:10:14] But I think network is, is important because you have to be. Parts of my job is not investing in a company today. I'm just thinking about the next six months. Like I'm already thinking about, their late seed round or their series a or who the people are that they're going to need to talk to.

[00:10:26] Japan, if they want to expand their or the U S if they want to expand there. So like, for me to be more useful to my founders, which is the best way for me to get into a dealer to get an opportunity to work for a company is to show them that like, I can be helpful and useful having a good network that allows me to do that is good.

[00:10:45] But you know, it's a balancing act. Like I remember when I was in New York. Talking to someone who is like, you need to, his view was you need to have like a super tight, condensed local networks. And he's like, I am Mr. New York. And I was kinda like, well, [00:11:00] like, do London. And I have some friends in Dublin and I do a lot of stuff in dystonia and I have all of these other, he was like, you have to pick one of those places.

[00:11:09] Yeah. I'm like, no, I'm never going to be, Mr. Rose Pakistan or something like this. But like, I think you can have. A relatively dispersed network, but you just then have to be, you'd have to think a little bit systematically. And that's been really hard this year about how you continually re-engage with that network that, one of the good things about the conference circuit in Europe is that you can go to probably four or five events over the course of a year on these.

[00:11:34] In your network and have a beer with them and have breakfast and have a chat. And you've at least created that touch point. And then maybe there's a couple of zoom calls or a little bit of give and take and help along the way. But yeah, sometimes people are obsessed with it and they're like, oh yeah, have some of the world's greatest network.

[00:11:49] And for some people that works for others, it's like, less than that. Yeah. I think

[00:11:53] Hector: the, the, the only place that strikes me as being really useful to have a great network and sign that we do a lot of work on [00:12:00] episode one is in helping companies raise subsequent rounds. So I don't know, I don't know where that effect is most important and most valuable, but certainly from seed, I look at our portfolio companies, we help them.

[00:12:11] Identify all the right funds to speak to at the next round, make the right introductions to the right partners in those funds. And my instinct is that optimizes their rounds enormously. I wonder if that effect is as great to pretty seed to seed why you guys are operating. Okay.

[00:12:28] Eamonn Carey: It is. I think actually it's, it's interesting.

[00:12:30] I think that that dynamic probably. Decreases in importance as you get if you're going to series B to series C like the actual pool that you're fishing in is so small that everyone already knows everyone else. Yeah, exactly. The bit where companies normally fall apart in my experience is like, they pitch a bunch of pre-seed investors, but actually they're raising a seed round or they go and talk to older seed round investors, but then it turns out they're actually gonna be raising like 250 K.

[00:12:57] And so I think the bit that we [00:13:00] tried to help companies with and help them think about is being very systematic in terms of building out an investor pipeline that says. These are the people I need to talk to after like during or after Techstars. And not only that, I also need to look at who do they co-invest with in the subsequent round of funding.

[00:13:17] So that I know that if I take capital from episode one, then the likelihood is that I'm going to, there's a list of 15 funds that, that they co-invest with that I should be thinking about for, my late senior, my series, a and I think because the pool is so big now, like you've got, even if I look at the last.

[00:13:35] To Techstars London, batches compared to the first five or six that we did the, the first couple of programs that we ran. Like I would say 90% of the capital going into the company's post-program was from UK investors. Like almost exclusively, like a handful of, of, of other European investors and a few angels from, from elsewhere.

[00:13:55] If I look at the last two years, We've had probably a third of the companies who've [00:14:00] been invested by U S institutional, east coast and west coast. Now, institutional investors, probably another thirds, maybe a little bit more kind of UK slash Europe. And then we've had a bunch of investors come in from, Japan, middle east, like all of these kinds of other places.

[00:14:15] So even now, if you're a pre-seed founder going, who do I talk to? Like the list of possible people to talk to is like, Probably five times larger this year than it was two years ago. And so that's where I think we as very early stage investors, hopefully you're good guidance or at least kind of like the, it's a little guardrail say put up when you go bowling to, to keep the ball in the right lane rather than letting them because founders will, of course go.

[00:14:39] I want to talk to Andrew Chen, Andreessen Horowitz. It's like. He might not want to see your clickable Sigma prototype just yet, maybe, maybe think about doing that a little bit further down the line. And so, one of the challenges is obviously founders face off in a thousand different directions at once.

[00:14:52] And part of our job as investors is to go get us great, like maintain that energy, but like please try and direct it in this direction so that you, you [00:15:00] get the outcome that you. Yeah.

[00:15:02] Hector: What is it that the founders find most useful? What is it that you get very passionate about in terms of textiles offering where you can add value to founders?

[00:15:12] Eamonn Carey: I think there's a, there's a bunch of things I think I think one big part is, is empathy. So, so pretty much everyone who, who does my job or the equivalent in Techstars, we have all been early stage founders before we've all gone to pitch VCs. We've all gone through the kind of good, bad and ugly of running a program.

[00:15:30] And, a lot of our mentors have been through that journey as well. And I do think sometimes. Of what founders lead as much as they need capital and, and team members and growth is, is just the ability to go. Am I crazy to think X the answer to which is normally no, like everyone goes through all of these different phases of, of thoughts.

[00:15:51] So I think empathy is a big part of it. I think. Hands-on as well in terms of the kind of engagement with companies. So, most Techstars programs, it's like 10 or 12 [00:16:00] companies. It's very like, there's a lot of one-on-one time between me and the companies during on post-program. There's a lot of one-on-one time with the kind of mentors and entrepreneurs and residents that we have.

[00:16:10] And then I think the other big thing is that like, we're, we are. Genuinely international, like, we okay. 30, maybe 25 or 30 of the programs that we run are in the U S kind of across the whole country and Canada. But then we also have like a pretty big because of the startup weekend programs that we run, like we've run startup weekends and I think 160 something countries now.

[00:16:32] So like, there is someone from the tech stars network almost everywhere. In the world. And, and that I think is something that founders find really useful that like, there's this other network of founders that have been there and done that, that they can talk to there's this network of mentors that they can tap into in different markets.

[00:16:47] And I think that's the big thing that they need help with is just like, even if it's just a 15 minute call to go, am I too early to consider entering the Japanese market? And the answer is yes, rather than spending like two weeks researching is [00:17:00] like that is unbelief and disproportionately valuable for founders to be able to manage their time.

[00:17:04] And that's why we talk a lot. Right. That three month period should be two years worth of learning crammed into a very short period of time.

[00:17:10] James: I was going to ask Amun apart from infectious curiosity, which is very clear. What do you think is your biggest motivation?

[00:17:20] Eamonn Carey: In this space. So it's a really good question. And, a lot of it is it comes down to frustration. Right. And if I look back on the two companies that I started and, or the two that, that worked out is largely the reason I started those companies was I was really annoyed that they didn't already exist.

[00:17:36] And so I was like, why am I just so frustrated that like, no one is making content for mobile? Why are they not doing it? And eventually it was like, Why don't you do like, look in the mirror, like you can do contents, you can build the apps and you can write code. Like, why don't you do? It's like, okay, I'll do it.

[00:17:50] And then with the games company, it was like, I'm so frustrated that the kind of internet is very anodyne and boring. Like why doesn't someone build something that's a bit more fun. And so we went and did it. And [00:18:00] so one of the reasons I say involved doing BC is that, like I also found it very frustrating building a company because I, frankly, I wasn't very good at it.

[00:18:07] And there wasn't much, 2004, 2005 in Ireland, like there, there were no accelerators. There wasn't much of a kind of VC infrastructure. There were a couple of founders and a few other people who were like unbelievably generous with their time and advice. And that, that meant a lot like that.

[00:18:23] That probably was the difference between success and failure for me. And so like the. The frustration that I felt as a fender is now a frustration that I feel on behalf of other founders. And so I love being able to just spend time with people and talk them down from a ledge or, give them an introduction that makes a big difference or kind of go, oh yeah.

[00:18:42] But just don't do it like that. Like just talk to this person on they'll solves a problem for you and then getting an email or going, Hey, have you thought about this as a, AB test and one of the joys of doing pre-seed is you say, Hey, have you thought about changing this wording on your landing page?

[00:18:55] And then the company goes and does it, and like 20 minutes later, you get an email. They're like our conversion rate went up 10%. [00:19:00] Like, that's incredible. Like that's, that's a really, being able to make that differences is what, what does it for me like, and the excitement, the excitement of the first kind of, I don't know, 24, 36 months of a company's life.

[00:19:13] Like that's the bit that I really thrive, like excitement and chaos and madness and frustration and all that kinda stuff. That's, that's really why I do it. And I think. The people who like starting a company is both the best and worst thing that I ever did. Like it's, it's arguably the stupidest decision I ever made and the greatest one.

[00:19:29] And so the extent to which I can support other people who choose to do that is it's something that I'm very privileged to have the opportunity to do. And that's something that I want to try and continue to do for as long as I can. Yeah. It's interesting. The The sort of

[00:19:43] Hector: the two parts that we're talking about one, which is like, I guess the two parts, which all VCs try and help with one being, helping founders with their psychology, almost acting like a coach for them.

[00:19:55] And the other part is, okay, well, do you actually have. Business now. And can you get [00:20:00] strategic advice that is helpful and not counterproductive? And, and I guess it's probably okay for investors to sort of specialize in either one, then maybe it's rare to find an investor who has both.

[00:20:11] Eamonn Carey: Yeah, I think, if, if I think about where this whole kind of weird, weird and wonderful world of VC is going, you look at all of this stuff that's happening with rolling funds.

[00:20:20] You look at it. Hustle fond and rare breed and backstage, and like lots and lots of others that are, that are out there. Or kind of personality driven funds like, like Ryan Hoover and weekend and others. I think now, historically there was this kind of idea that like, you didn't want to do a party round.

[00:20:37] You didn't want to have a messy top saver. You didn't want to have too many investors on there. Like if I were starting a company tomorrow, I would go, okay, I'm weak in these areas. And so therefore I want to angels who can help me either hire someone to be better in those areas or can be someone to.

[00:20:50] Bounce ideas off in, in those sectors. And so I do think particularly at the early stage, at least for now, and we'll see it play out in later stages as more capital starts to go towards[00:21:00] solo operators or smaller funds or more nimble funds or are more specialist funds. I think it's really interesting.

[00:21:05] Like I have friends now who are starting their second or third companies and they have. No, their pre seed grant is 15 or 20 people, but it's 15 or 20 people who are like, you can go to almost any question and you'll get like an incredibly solid answer. And I think it's a challenge for, for phones.

[00:21:21] It's a challenge for accelerators. It's your challenge for a lot of people in an industry that is actually getting ironically is getting disruptive. So I think that's, that's one of the big challenges is that now if you're, particularly if you're a hot tequila pre-seed or seeds, if you have a choice of do I take the fund that gives me a large check and maybe a board member and they have some portfolio services that I can access, but.

[00:21:43] I have a question mark, about how valuable those portfolio services are, because they're very general or do I take money from this person who's going to like help me launch on products and then take a little bit of money from this person who has negotiated all of these partnership deals and take a little bit of money from this person.

[00:21:57] So I think there's a really interesting [00:22:00] shift starting to happen in the market. There is definitely an evolution in the way that founders are thinking about capital and the way I think that a lot of people are thinking about investing. And I think that's really exciting. Like it's the first time in a long time with the exception of like crowd funding, which everyone thought would be maybe a bigger deal than it than it's turned out to be so far.

[00:22:20] I think this is one of the biggest shifts in the kind of VC and investment landscape in a long time with everything from, as I say, rolling phones to stacks and all of that stuff.

[00:22:28] James: Yeah, definitely. I've experienced that class recently with a company we've been fundraising for. And it makes sense to have slightly smaller checks from some investors, but to free up space within the round for more people who can tick some of those boxes.

[00:22:42] And I think with more sort of fundraising tools online, adding more people isn't extra work. And so therefore you want that increase in distribution and network by having more people involved. So, yeah. Lower your minimum and things like that to get, get people into the [00:23:00] round,

[00:23:00] Eamonn Carey: which is great.

[00:23:01] And it's, it's great to see it, right? Like, I think for a long time, a bunch of companies that maybe would have benefited from having five or six angels on their cap table got into a situation where a fund said, Hey, we're going to take the whole round. And what people don't always understand is, for a lot of funds, the way that they're set up is, if, if you raise capital from them and you're not growing like crazy 12 months later, you probably don't get the same kind of love and attention because they're thinking about like, is this going to be a fund returner or do we now have to put more effort and energy into another company?

[00:23:31] Whereas if you have an angel investor, well, obviously they have a very different. Outlook from a, from a returns and expectation perspective. So, I think there's, there's a lot of stuff that in fairness, we spend a lot of time working with vendors on this during the program to go look, you need to think about what this dynamic is going to look like.

[00:23:48] And a lot of time going, like do the venture deals course. So you at least understand how VC works and, and what the motivations are and what the expectations are because like, once you get on that hamster wheel, it's, it's very hard to get up and kinda go home. [00:24:00] We're going to slow from 150% month over month growth to like 20% month over month, because I want to take a vacation.

[00:24:05] It's like, you're going to get fired if you decide to do that in a board meeting. So like, companies need to go in with their eyes wide open when they take VC. That, I tell people all the time, like, and it's, it's a mistake that tons of vendors still make. Like they just don't do any due diligence on the people they're taking.

[00:24:19] In fact, I think it's a really negative signal. If I'm thinking about selecting a company for Techstars, and I'm not getting emails from portfolio companies going, Hey, this person got in touch with me. They wanted to see what it was like. Was it worth it? You come into Techstars, we're asking you for 6% of your company, like that's quite a loss, right?

[00:24:34] That's an emotional amount of equity to give away. And so you, you need to be sure that I'm not just some like fast talking Irish guy. Who's like, oh, Hey, come join our network. It's amazing. Like we're all gonna have a St karaoke and have a great time. Like you need to make sure that that 6% is you're going to sweat me for it basically and swept the network for it.

[00:24:51] And I really love seeing founders doing their due diligence on me. And I love seeing them do their due diligence on other funds as well, because it's. It's just, it's [00:25:00] invaluable. And it's a really good signal that they're structured in terms of their thing.

[00:25:04] James: Yeah, there's definitely a sort of slight funding hack there, which is get a testimonial from an existing portfolio company.

[00:25:12] It will feed back to the investor and you'll get a big political kudos from the investor for that. I think also going back to the, having larger cap tables and lower minimum tickets, I think it's quite good timing for the UK, particularly in Europe, generally in that, we've got more unicorns now, so there are many more people in the market.

[00:25:32] Who have maybe not necessarily being the founder or the investor that built that company, but have been employee 10 to a hundred and been on that journey and they might do smaller tickets, but they've got real operational value to add. And so, yeah, I think we're going to see many more two to 10 K tickets from people.

[00:25:52] Can add a lot of value from their own network and knowledge and stuff. And I think funders are tapping onto that at the moment. And [00:26:00] if anyone's listening who works at a unicorn, I'd encourage them to do more angel investing as well. Cause they, yeah, definitely do

[00:26:05] Eamonn Carey: like, we're seeing way more of it.

[00:26:06] The good thing as well is that finally took like 10 years basically. For Europe to, to catch up, but like you had second market and a bunch of other platforms in the U S where, if you were an arrogant employee at Facebook or Twitter, you could sell some of your options and, and generate some liquidity.

[00:26:22] Like we're starting to see a bunch of secondary funds and, and even individuals and family offices now going in and buying secondary and giving liquidity to those early operators that, founders and early hires. And, that's been the cycle in the bay area and in the U S. I think it's, it's, it's long overdue here, but it is amazing.

[00:26:41] Now, like when I see company cap tables coming into Techstars, or even, during the program, like there's far more people who are coming out of DeepMind or Facebook or Revolut or TransferWise or different places where it's, as you say, it's that five or 10 K ticket, but like unbelievable value add in terms of what they, they gave alongside the.[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] Yeah,

[00:27:00] Hector: just drawing, growing more on that point. I'd love to do it. What about the democratization of early stage funding? Cause the role, the rolling funds, we've talked about the crowd funding, smaller smaller angel tickets, et cetera. I mean it feels like textiles could be really well-placed to do something there to, whether it's allowing smaller check sizes.

[00:27:20] I know also

[00:27:20] with

[00:27:21] Eamonn Carey: the background of.

[00:27:23] Hector: How do you continue to innovate as an accelerator? What, what what's next? What moves the needle? And I just wonder whether you, you guys have been thinking about sort of the democratization of the Verde stage and, and thinking where you guys can play a part there.

[00:27:37] Eamonn Carey: Yeah. It's, it's definitely a big topic of conversation for us for a bunch of reasons. One is, the, the nature of our programs where we have, a hundred mentors meet the 10 companies in the first month or two. A lot of those mentors, probably I know, 50 or 60%, maybe even 70 or 80% on some programs.

[00:27:54] Some of those mentors are also angels. And so a lot of them are now coming to us going, Hey, is there a way [00:28:00] that we can participate more in the companies? That we see like historically companies would come and do Techstars and then they would raise money on demo day. What we've seen in the last two or three years is that.

[00:28:10] Half of the companies raise money in the first month of the program. And most of that money comes from an, from the people that are mentors that they meet or, or friends of, of the mentors. So there's definitely like, and as we think about that more systematically, it's like, well, actually we have like 6,000 or 8,000 mentors around the world.

[00:28:26] Some of who might, if you're in New York, you might like exposure to London. If you're in London, you might like exposure to Korea. But, because again, we have this international footprint, that's something that's, that's quite interesting. So I think there's, there's a, there's a bunch of stuff there's also even, w what is it that happens in between say a startup weekend and the accelerator?

[00:28:45] What is it that happens after an accelerator? Like we run these three months programs, but it's not like companies stopped needing help, when they when they grow in scale. So I think there's a, there's a bunch of different types of. Programming and funding opportunities that we're looking at.

[00:28:58] We've [00:29:00] talked to crowd funding platforms and other people in the past to see if there's there's ways of working together there. And, I think there, there is, to your point, there is very, definitely an opportunity for us to evolve and iterate and, and also I think an opportunity to there's also a huge kind of group of companies that I think probably fall just outside the kind of venture backable class of companies. If you want to think about it like that. Where actually you can invest at a, three or 5 million valuation, and that company is going to sell for 30 or 50, and you've maybe got a, 10 or 15% chance of that happening versus like a 0.0, zero 1% chance of, the kind of fund returner.

[00:29:37] I think there's a big opportunity for us to work with those types of companies as well. Right. And I think that's, that's one of the areas where this kind of democratization of capital I think is really exciting is that there's this whole section of the economy. That's starting to get unblocked by.

[00:29:52] Technology where some companies will be built into whatever unicorns are decking, corns, but there will also be a bunch of companies that actually just do really, really [00:30:00] well. And whether you get your money back in the form of dividends or an exit, like who knows. If you're invested, if you're in that more angel investor mindset of like, well, I can take a bit of a view on this being a five-year growth project rather than a 18 month one.

[00:30:14] I think there will be some pretty substantial gains for people with pockets and patients basically over the next. Definitely cause I,

[00:30:21] Hector: I think, that people like our listeners would love to stay probably a few hundred quid to companies that have the sort of seal of approval from VCs and et cetera.

[00:30:30] I don't know if you've heard of the seed stage, which is my, my Yvette that and you know, that, and that I think is complimentary to, Techstars where some of your companies would probably apply and pitch it's another demo day. And one of the things I'm keen to do with that is to have a sort of cohort fund with tiny minimum minimum tickets.

[00:30:47] And as you say, tech tech enabled. So yeah, and maybe textiles should open it up too.

[00:30:53] Eamonn Carey: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, it is it's, it's a bit like the scene in the train station, in the [00:31:00] matrix where the train is coming in, agent Smith is holding. It's like that is the crushing sand of inevitability.

[00:31:05] Right. All of this stuff is up for grabs over the next five to 10 years, both here in the UK and in Europe, more widely and into the U S like I invested in thunder beam a couple of years ago because I, I buy into the whole equity crowd funding stuff. Like, I think there's a massive opportunity. I think there's still huge opportunity.

[00:31:24] I like what they're doing, but liquids secondary markets, selfishly as an angel investor, there have been days where I'm like, this is great that we've had this markup, like. But can I, can I have, can I see some of the benefits of that? So I think there's a bunch of really interesting stuff.

[00:31:39] Taking longer and probably than we thought it would to change. Like I thought a lot of this stuff would just be like happen, like would have already happened. And now I'm kind of like, oh, well maybe, maybe it's a bit like, VR. Like it's gonna take, it's gonna take a lot longer than everyone thinks before everyone gets an Oculus quest, but it will get there.

[00:31:56] And I think whether it's Techstars or whether it's, Jason Calacanis is [00:32:00] doing with their kind of remote demo days in the U S what you're doing with the seed stage, you know what we're starting to, what, what bigger funds are doing with their scout programs, rolling. Like all of these types of things are really interesting.

[00:32:11] And I don't know that it's necessarily going to be a zero sum game or, or outcome. But I do think that even though we're in the kind of, the, the, the nervy parts of it are we going to have like a massive recession or what's going to happen? I also think there's probably, hasn't been a better time to start a company in the last kind of 10 or 15 years.

[00:32:31] Like there's so much capital out there. There's so much opportunity. Like when I think back to what we had to do to, do very basic stuff. When I was running a company now I'm kinda like, geez, I could have used Webflow and had that done in like 10 minutes instead of 10 days. So that the opportunity is there.

[00:32:45] We're seeing a lot more people go, all right, well, I'm just going to start something. I'm going to bootstrap it. I'm going to run it as a kind of side hustle. And then if it turns into a thing, great, let's run with it more, more systematically. You're more structured. But I think it's pretty into like an an and that's born out.

[00:32:58] Like when I look at it, we're, we're in the [00:33:00] final stages of selection for the upcoming Techstars program. Like the quality we could have taken 30 companies this year. Like, normally I'd say 10 or 15 or 20. Yeah. But this year genuinely, like if I had an unlimited budget and a clown to take all of those meetings, the quality was high in a first to take that number of companies this year and it's increasing.

[00:33:22] Yeah. I think it's a,

[00:33:23] James: it's a sort of success breeds success, isn't it. And I'm starting to see that there's still a long way to go in terms of structuring all of that and helping it find the right things at the right time at the right price and all of that sort of stuff.

[00:33:38] Eamonn Carey: I've got so many questions on and

[00:33:42] James: on and on.

[00:33:43] I wanted to just quickly, before we do our last segment, just ask you about some of the big trends that you're seeing in early stage. What's hot right now for you that maybe the audience aware of.

[00:33:55] Eamonn Carey: I'm a big believer in, probably more of a consumer investor than [00:34:00] most.

[00:34:00] And I don't know that we have seen that kind of direct to consumer trends play out as much in Europe as, as we have in the U S and that's partially because it's going market by market into Europe is like death by a thousand cuts in a lot of ways. It's certainly not helped by the current.

[00:34:15] Political situation and border control situation here. But let's assume that gets fixed at some points in the next couple of years. Like I think consumer in Europe has a, like, there's a big footprint and a big addressable opportunity in a big market. And I think we will see some consolidation in that space and some really interesting stuff happening there.

[00:34:32] So, so that's definitely definitely number one, I think because of everything that happened over the last kind of 14 or 15 months, we're in this kind of new. Almost like era of escapism where, you know, whether it be all of the fitness apps that have become pretty popular on, on Oculus, right?

[00:34:49] The way through to what apple fitness. And I see the Peloton and background there, like, everything from fitness escapism to like VR gaming, to streaming gaming, et cetera, like anything that takes people out of. [00:35:00] Reading the news and getting depressed and into a kind of flow state and happiness.

[00:35:05] Again, I think there's a massive opportunity. Like we're, we're only scratching the surface of VR gaming multi-player of AR as we start getting into kind of glasses that don't look horrendous, like Google glass, there will be a bunch of really interesting companies that are built out in that space and everything from kind of actual games to like haptic technology and feedback and that side of things.

[00:35:25] And then the other big one that I've, I've been asking for companies for, for a long time. It's like aging populations, we've, we've got I am part of an aging poet. I keep getting older, which is, which is one great regret that I have. But like known as building tools, I meet a lot of people building tools for 16 year olds who have no money.

[00:35:40] I'd meet fewer people who are building tools for 65 year olds who have lots. And so I think that there is a huge opportunity for kind of tech savvy, kind of 50 plus people. And, and I, I I'd like to see a lot more in, in, in that space. And we're starting again to see little shoots and in that area, but yeah, those are those are a couple of areas I'm [00:36:00] excited by.

[00:36:00] Thanks. So much Ayman for that. Super interesting. And we had as I think you could tell about a million more questions that we would have liked to have asked had we the time, but yeah, super interesting to hear your views on democratization of finance. That's a particular area of interest for me.

[00:36:17] Angel investing where things are going with regards to that. And also just I think everyone would agree. It was fascinating hearing where accelerators can go in the future. And we always love talking to entrepreneurs. Who've turned to investors and what we'd like to do at the end of the shows is ask people who, if they had three people alive or dead to a dinner party, who would they invite? So some minor, probably less businessy and more just people who I think will be interesting to hang around with.

[00:36:49] But so I I like absolutely fell in love with Florence, Q the actress during lockdown. So her Instagram stories are incredible. She's a. Keen, and it looks like a [00:37:00] extremely good cook as well. And I love cooking. Florence Pugh, and she genuinely, she kept me back just a few weeks ago.

[00:37:09] So I will genuinely report that back to her. She'll be so shaft she's genuinely. It was, it was amazing to, to follow that journey over Lockton cause he's produced some pretty good pretty good dishes. And it's funny that the last time I had a conversation similar to this was with someone else who's in the UK kind of startup ecosystem, where a friend of mine was over from the U S and he was like, oh, we're trying to get Emma Watson to be a spokesperson for the brand.

[00:37:32] And he had, Sue's like, I'll try. I went for drinks with her last week. She's best friends with my wife. It was like, so, so there's obviously the six degrees of separation is is reduced even further here.

[00:37:42] Every good dinner party needs someone to sing at the end. And I'm a massive Biffy Clyro fan. So Simon Neil, who's the lead singer. Biffy again, I have yet to hear an interview with him where he's been on anything less than hilarious and very insightful in terms of like, I think there's a lot of similarities between the creative process in music [00:38:00] and the creative process in cooking and what people might use slightly less creative process in building a startup.

[00:38:05] But to my mind, that iterative process that you go through. Test learn, wireframe prototype test repeats. Like that's exactly the same as writing a song. You're just, writing code instead. But Simon from again, like just really interesting guy, good personality and interesting perspective on the nature of creativity.

[00:38:20] He listened to a podcast. He did a while ago where he talked about as a songwriter, how you constantly have to have your kind of antenna up. And I thought it was really interesting. Again, the best fenders that I've worked with, the best CEOs in particular, the unfortunates there, they have that intellectual curiosity right there, con they're looking at like the onboarding flow of other companies, or they're buying a hardware product, even though they're a software company, because they want to understand what the unboxing process looks like.

[00:38:46] So like, I think that kind of idea of. Being aware, like having taking the blinkers off and having a wider view of, of what's going on in the world is, is, is really important. And then I would also love [00:39:00] to invite Renee Zappy. Who's the head chef at Noma who is also a music. Who's built an extremely successful business in, in Noma which is again centered around the importance of creativity, but also in their case, they have a real sense of kind of fun and a sense of kind of style about what they they do.

[00:39:16] And to an extent, they remind me a lot of of that. Archetypal kind of disruptor in, in terms of the way that they think about the world. I think there's a whole bunch of those Michelin star chefs that that would be in another universe would probably be the founders of like massive tech companies.

[00:39:30] But as it is, I'm sure they're actually incredibly successful selling 1500 pound dinners. But I think those would be my kind of ideal dinner party guests, just because. And again, it's back to the curiosity thing. Like I think I've learned something from each of them. And also I love dinner parties where I don't talk about the internet all the time.

[00:39:47] Because it gets talked about that all day. Like if I can talk about music and art and movies and stuff like that, then I think the dinner party will be a little bit more fun. So those are my. I think it's going to be an amazing dinner party. I might have to slip into that. Cause it sounded like [00:40:00] you credible food.

[00:40:01] And the point about these people making great entrepreneurs, another life I think is so true. I was watching a documentary about Coldplay and I was watching a lot of it was focused around Chris Martin and I was watching him thinking if he walked into episode one's office with an, with a company is like the most investible guy.

[00:40:19] So I think the people at the top of their game. One way or another. Exactly like, like there, they built a brand, right? Like, everything, the aesthetic, the clothing, like the deliberate choices that they made up, particularly from the third album on it's just, it's, it's really fascinating and that's, that's exactly it.

[00:40:33] I think there's, I'm sure people in the music industry wouldn't thank me for comparing them to tech Sanders, who they might think are weird, but I suspect if they sat across the dinner table from one another, they would find that we far more likes than we are different. No. Thank you so much, Amy.

[00:40:47] And it's been awesome having you on. Thank you very much and we'll stay in touch, so I haven't made it. It was an absolute pleasure. Yeah. Thanks Simon.

[00:40:56] It was an absolute pleasure talking to amen. He is. [00:41:00] Incredibly humble, but has had a huge amount of success and is one of the good guys in the tech world. And his network speaks for itself.

[00:41:09] Seeing as we had Amun on, we decided to pick a textiles company for this week. Startup spotlight. So this week, startup spotlight is anything world. Anything wild is a platform that lets game developers develop and search for 3d assets using their voice. They've combined, cutting edge, artificial intelligence, natural language, understanding and computer vision to make 3d libraries accessible.

[00:41:35] Through voice search.

[00:41:36] This allows developers to request see and manipulate. And the thing they can think of. Anyone that's interested in gaming e-sports VR or AR should definitely go and check them out. It's anything.world.

[00:41:47] That's all for riding unicorns this week. Catch us next time. And subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.