Jos White, Partner @ Notion Capital

Jos White is a General Partner at VC firm Notion Capital. In 2000 Jos alongside his brother launched MessageLabs, the first company in the world to introduce anti-virus as a service, which incidentally at the time also made it the first SaaS business ever. Seven years later MessageLabs was acquired by Symantec in 2008 for $700m.

The self confessed entrepreneur obsessive sat down with Riding Unicorns for what turned out to be a riveting conversation, which touched on topics such as how Jos overcame his shyness in the early years, his tips on spreading the risk of investing and his feelings behind being an exit founder. 

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Transcript

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[00:00:00] Welcome to riding unicorns. The podcast about growth startups. I'm James Pringle from Goldsmith ventures. And my co-host is Hector Mason from episode one ventures. This week, we have Jos White partner notion capital on the podcast. Just tells us about his career as an entrepreneur, leading up to a massive exit. And then he's moved from angel to VC.

[00:00:32] We cover what just looks for in software as a service companies, often referred to as SAS companies and how the pandemic has led to an accelerated adoption of cloud-based software.

[00:00:45] James: So welcome to riding unicorns, Josh. Thanks for joining us.

[00:00:48] Jos: Yeah. It's very good to be here and I'm looking forward to that.

[00:00:53] James: Thanks. So maybe you could take us back to the start of your career and what you've been doing since you [00:01:00] started out.

[00:01:02] Jos: I had a bit of a, long and winding road into tech in that.

[00:01:06] I actually, started out in tech in the early nineties, buying and selling secondhand IBM equipment, which is not a market that I recommend to anyone, which is, very much a kind of cowboy. trading market with very low margins and just a very tough environment. and, it was a business that my brother and his original partner had been in and I had to make to join.

[00:01:27] and, I'm not sure why I joined actually, because it was just a difficult business to make money. And, but the big breakthrough came when, one of our customers who was actually a part of BT asked us for a Cisco. And, we were calling them Kisco. We had no idea who they were or what a router was.

[00:01:44] but we sourced it from the states and we supplied it to BT. And about a week later, they faxed, you can tell how long ago it was because it was a fax machine, but they, fax through a whole list of Cisco equipment. And again, we sourced it in the states and we thought we're just trying to sell it to them at lisp.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] And we bought it at about 50% off list, price and marches, which were unheard of in that second and IBM market and BT didn't even blink and just bought the equipment. And, I think at that point, a light bulb went on and we realized that the market was moving away from big IBM systems with dumb terminals on the desktop networking in the synchro, the internet, and this company called Cisco seemed to be at the forefront.

[00:02:23] And we turned up that the whole company on its head, and we became a Cisco supplier very, very early into that market before Cisco even had a presence in the UK actually. And, within six months we were doing more than a million pounds a month and it just went absolutely bananas. we really in the right place at the right time.

[00:02:41] and then I co founded again with my brother Ben. Okay. Founded each of my businesses. K finally, one of the UK first internet providers, which was called star in 1995, but we try to help businesses get set up with the internet because it was pretty complicated back then to do. we were known as an internet provider really trying to write software and trying to innovate rather than just provide a [00:03:00] connection to a network.

[00:03:01] and then I co founded a business called message labs in 2000, which was a very early SAS business where we did antivirus and anti spam and other types of email security in the cloud. So you just redirect your, traffic to one of our data centers and we would scrub it and pass it on. So you didn't have to worry.

[00:03:17] At a local level. And we realized by doing that, like any good cloud-based business, we could actually follow a more data-driven approach. So we could look at things like the sender of the message and the patterns of movement within the, emails that we could look inside, the email itself, the threats viruses are always derivative, and we could actually predict it.

[00:03:37] identify new threats without needing an exact match without needing an update, which was how traditional antiviral support works. And that was really the big breakthrough. Is there our threats instantly, and stop them long before they reach your own machines. And then that was a big, big breakthrough at the time.

[00:03:53] and, we actually stopped and named a lot of the big viruses, that were prevalent at the time, including the Lovebug [00:04:00] virus in 2000. but I moved to the U S in 2002 to run message ads, expansion, the. We scaled the company up pretty successfully. We got to 2008 where we had about $150 million of ARR.

[00:04:12] And we were the third largest SAS business in the world behind Salesforce and WebEx. and we were gearing up for a big IPO and then unfortunately, our, IPA was actually scheduled for September, 2008, which proved to be pad timing. and so we never made it, but we ended up selling to Symantec, later on in 2008 for about $700 million.

[00:04:30] So one of the larger transactions in a sort of first gen of SAS companies, but, we see some of our peers what they've gone on, to do. you know, it makes us wonder about what we could have done as a public company. It wasn't meant to be. but then the following year, part of the founding team behind message, as we set up motion in 2009, with the police. You know, there was another big shift going on in the world of technology and that all software's moving into the cloud and the SAS delivery model. and we were just at the beginning of that, sort of market [00:05:00] explosion.

[00:05:01] and that we were one of the few teams in Europe they've actually built and scout a big SAS business. So we thought, why don't we combine. Ideas together and set up a VC just to focus on the emerging SAS opportunity where hopefully we'd have a kind of unfair advantage. Cause we bought a big company in the space.

[00:05:16] and so that's what we did. our first fund was our own money that we went out and then went out and, having kind of learnt off, her own money. We went out and raised from outside investors. and we're now, investing our four fund, which is about 200 and twenty-five million dollars.

[00:05:30] we have about $700 million under management and a team of about 27 now in London. and we focused. Predominantly on a series a and series B opportunities. companies in the portfolio include currency cloud, GoCardless, Tradeshift, muse globe, Fox, brighter, fixer Unbabel, companies like that.

[00:05:49] and, we're excited about the position we're in. and, we felt that the enterprise software enterprise SAS market is. really growing rapidly and as has actually been further kind of catalyzed by it by the [00:06:00] pandemic and we've got a strong brand in the market so we're, excited by our, position.

[00:06:05] James: Amazing, very entrepreneurial rise, very exciting journey. What was the first investment you made you had been an entrepreneur. When did you first make an investment?

[00:06:16] Jos: I made investments privately before I made investments through notion. so the first investment that I made, as an angel investor, was in a company called just works.

[00:06:30] I was still living in New York at the time and they are a New York based company and It's a SAS platform for, payroll and benefits. I was actually the first investor. Isaac oats is a founder and the CEO, and they've actually. Gone on to do amazing things.

[00:06:46] So they're now comfortably, uh, unicorn business and, tracking towards a potential IPO. so very, very excited about that. and I think. that made me think that, all investments turn out [00:07:00] like that. And, I don't think they do. but it was certainly a good one to get started with, um, an investment at a company that I'm very proud to be connected to.

[00:07:09] And I still think they've got, their best years ahead of them. So it's a very, very excited company to have in that.

[00:07:16] James: Yeah, absolutely. There's ever, an example of one way to catch the bug, I guess. Is that having a first investment?

[00:07:23] Jos: Exactly. Yeah, they have no town that, that, you know, that's another rule about investing, I think is, however good you think you are.

[00:07:29] you're probably not as good as you think you are. And however good you think the market is, it's just such a high risk. it's a high risk occupation, I think you have to have some, some level of volume in your portfolio, in order to do well.

[00:07:43] So whenever someone says to me, oh, you know, I want to do some private sort of angel investing into tech. maybe I'm going to stick, I'm going to spend a hundred grand and I'm going to spend, I'm going to make two investments. I'll always say to them, make 10 investments of 10 grand each.

[00:07:55] At least because, you've got to spread it around because it is, it's [00:08:00] very, very high risk, high reward, occupation, early stage investing and, you definitely got to work a volume model.

[00:08:06] Hector: I was asking a few people the other day about angel investment advice in the, what came back.

[00:08:12] So do one, unless you're going to do 20. so I think good advice though, super interesting out here, your, entrepreneurial journey. I wonder if you still consider yourself an entrepreneur, which might seem a strange question given that visa is kind of the opposite. but do you, still think of yourself as an entrepreneur even while being a VC or have you left those days behind you?

[00:08:32] Jos: I think I do, I think we're very entrepreneurial. Yeah. and the way that we think about. Notion and the way that we think about VC, I think we've been quite, innovative in the way that we built out our platform to support our portfolio tied, to really leverage all the knowledge and the, pattern recognition or the people that the network that we have to productize our value adds.

[00:08:54] Uh, we've developed. Technology, which we call Rista to, provide us with a data-driven platform [00:09:00] to, recognize, opportunities earlier using data in a, automated way. we've launched an early stage. investment program called pioneers. we also were the original founders of included.vc, which brings in cohorts of people from around the world from minority and disadvantaged communities to take them through a kind of a course, for VC or, funded by people within, our network and sponsors of the program, to give people.

[00:09:27] who wouldn't normally get the chance to get into VC, to be trained and, have the right kind of connections to get into BC. So I think we feel like we've done a lot in terms of innovation, above and beyond your, just your kind of. Traditional VC firms. So I think that's maybe the entrepreneurial side of us just wanting to try to be creative and to kind of be, kind of curious and impatient and, keep challenging the status quo, which is what a good entrepreneur does. So I think we have to, we brought some of that into

[00:09:55] Hector: definitely. And I was reading a bit about your, website talking [00:10:00] about your background and you talk about being quite shy as a, kid. And I'm wondering how, your entrepreneurial journey has, impacted that. And when you're looking for investments, whether you look for certain traits that you used to have, and the burning fire that you talk about, I think is, is really interesting. And, and how does that impact your decision-making?

[00:10:22] Jos: I think it definitely does. I think everything you do contributes to the way you make decisions and the way you make important decisions in some way or another, whether it's conscious or unconscious. but now I'm having been one myself.

[00:10:34] I'm definitely the very founder driven. In the investments that I make. and I think a lot of that is that, that sort of authenticity. So I want a founder to be, honest and authentic and kind of comfortable in their own skin because I think that's the way, that you're going to build strong relationships. That's the way you're going to build strong teams. That's the way you're going to be. Self-aware about [00:11:00] your strengths and weaknesses and make sure you. Teams and bring in talent to address some of those weaknesses. And so I think that sort of honesty and authenticity is one of a few important traits in a founder, but yeah, I'm more into the, empathetic high EEQ self-aware, type of founder, as opposed to the, big ego.

[00:11:22] found out who, all paths lead to them. and in that way, that sort of a personality driven and that can work way, but it's not something that I'm so drawn to. And I think that often it doesn't scale well, either that sort of model. and I think just people are more open and. about their feelings and about their emotions and they used to be.

[00:11:42] And so I think that all brings about the need for more kind of empathetic, leadership where you're able to. develop relationships on that sort of level. So I think it's an interesting, subject, but I also, like, founders who can fill the room, in the way that they talk particularly the way they talk about that vision and how they're going to, help, really address a big, big problem[00:12:00] and how they're gonna address it differently.

[00:12:02] I like founders who have a bit of a chip on their shoulder, cause I think that really spurs. Motivates you to prove people wrong. And, that, that could be a very powerful thing. founders that have high intellect, high curiosity, and that right.

[00:12:15] Kind of balance between. being prepared to be coached, but having strong conviction about what you're doing, if you've got a hundred percent conviction, then you could drive off a cliff at a hundred miles an hour, but if you're too willing to be coached and then, you don't have enough conviction and you end up with a bit of a hodgepodge, I think of trying to please too many people and maybe not striking out and taking the bolder decisions.

[00:12:35] So that sort of balance between. Coaching and, conviction I think is important as well. but yeah, there's just a few things, but I could talk all day about, what kind of attributes I look for in a founder and an entrepreneur is an interesting subject, because I don't think any of them tick every box, but there's definitely some important traits, I think, which you do see time and time again.

[00:12:55] Hector: Definitely. Wouldn't it be great to have, that as part of your. Data platform a way to ingest that [00:13:00] data and spit out positive. Decision-making

[00:13:04] Jos: We're trying, but it's quite complicated.

[00:13:07] James: Yeah. So typically we actually covered with Juliet from MMC as well, that kind of coaching versus conviction. and then obviously with your founder Hassan, you must've experienced some really difficult times as well as the success is that. A moment that stands out where you have to show like real resilience that you can think of. And then how does that maybe impact how you deal with issues within your portfolio when things crop up?

[00:13:34] Jos: Yeah. you airbrushed your story. partly because you just want to compress the story into a short space of time, but also, you sort of tend to focus on the highlights. but yeah, I always say every startup has dysfunctional.

[00:13:46] The best ones are just slightly less dysfunctional. and so there's. Problems and often major, major problems and, existential threats on a regular basis and a lot of stress. So often people will look back and tell [00:14:00] that story and you're thinking, God, they make it sound so easy, but it's definitely never, never easy, to there's so many, big, big challenges we had along the way, but one that always stays in my mind is, with messaging.

[00:14:10] the company was originally founded in Gloucestershire. and then we moved to, London. We had an office in London and we moved around the world, , but, we actually became the largest processor of, email in the world.

[00:14:20] We were pressing. billions of emails every day. And our architecture was, it originally designed, without that kind of scale in mind, we were just sort of fiddling around really. We always joke that, you know, we read the manual wrong and, we started in the Stroud valley rather than in Silicon valley.

[00:14:38] what we found was that when there was big spam attacks, The volume of traffic to our network could increase by 30, 40 times. And this was a time before AWS, that we were using different data center providers around the world. And we were able to load balance within the data center across different service, but we hadn't [00:15:00] architected so that we could load balance across different data centers.

[00:15:02] We'd never imagined that the volume of traffic would have. so, extreme. and so when there was a big virus outbreak, or a big spam attack, we were finding that, following that sort of real, extraordinary growth of, message, abs that companies and users within the network, that the emails would be delayed in the worst times, emails would be delayed by several hours.

[00:15:28] And these were big companies, you know, these were banks and we had the federal reserve, a bank of New York. We had, big, big organizations around the world, Lloyd's bank here in the UK. Um, and, we weren't delivering their email, a business critical application, and there wasn't very much that we could do.

[00:15:45] I'd be speaking to a customer and I have like two or three customers on. And just saying, well, I know you're not getting any email, but at least you're not getting any viruses and they'd say, yeah, of course I'm not getting any viruses. I'm not to an email so that, you know, that would be impossible.

[00:15:59] and I think at [00:16:00] that time where literally the email was being delayed by several hours, I think that we really felt that because we've already provided them with such good levels of protection. I think customers gave us a free pass once maybe even price.

[00:16:14] but it took us six to 12 months to really rearchitect our infrastructure. So we could load balance across data centers and we could build in more capacity. And in that time it really felt that we were kind of hanging by a thread you can't operate without.

[00:16:32] and that was really, really nerve wracking. And I think that, my lesson from that as well, one is the importance of architecture and the way that you build out your, product and to as. You've really got to over-communicate with your customers in times of crisis. Like that, I think that the one thing customers hate more than anything is being left in the dark and not knowing what's going on.

[00:16:52] And, hopefully if you've, delivered value in the past, even if there is a major issue and you're not really over communicating, then you can get [00:17:00] through it. but it's tremendously stressful.

[00:17:04] James: that's a good ball story to have when founders come to you with a problem that they might be dealing with, as someone who sits across such a large portfolio, what is the most common challenge you see founders coming to you with? What, are founders struggling with at the level you're investing?

[00:17:23] Jos: I mean, there's a few, I mean, one thing that. it's become a phrase that's just so overly is now. I'm, I'm almost, inclined not to use it, but, really understand what product market fit means to you have a very, very clear and watertight definition for product market fit. And only when you have fulfilled that definition, should you really start to scale up in any meaningful way? So I see. Companies having a rather fast and loose definition of product market fit, and then off the back of that investing or just not reaching product market fit at all [00:18:00] and investing, you know, into sales and marketing and to get a market expansion plans, you know, I think you should stay really, really lean and really, really focused.

[00:18:10] and just iterate as quickly as you can until you've reached product market fit. And then you can start to really, invest much, much more aggressively and you'll go to market activities. in the knowledge that you've got that foundation of product market fit, which is really the beginning, the foundation for, going to market in my mind.

[00:18:28] So I tend to fail a misunderstanding about what, product market fit is or invest. Too much integrated market before companies reached product market fit, which to me is just completely wasted, energy, wasted, investment. I think that's one, another important one I think is, a reluctance to hire really senior experienced people.

[00:18:50] we did a lot of, research into this, which record the unicorn trajectory, where we looked at, a sample of. cloud-based B2B enterprise software businesses had reached unicorn [00:19:00] status and then a control group, which had raised similar amounts of money, at least at series a, but hadn't gone on to do very well and looked at the way that their team evolved over the years.

[00:19:09] And the biggest difference was the way that the unicorn companies supplemented to the original leadership. Bringing in people with significant experience to maybe compliment the founder team who are, for sure, full of energy and ambition and, have the vision for the business.

[00:19:27] But I think the best teams have a mix. I'll have that kind of founder mentality or, people who have kind of come up from within the organization, but also bringing in some people where they're not in the biggest jobs of their lives. They have done this before they have got that experience.

[00:19:42] And so I think bringing in those senior people early to really, compliment the leadership team is another, sometimes. Taking too long to do that and try to, rely on the original team and feel like, it's going to damage the culture or, that, the belief that, that the original team is sort of [00:20:00] sacrosanct in some way, I think can be, can be.

[00:20:03] James: Yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:20:05] Hector: that reset sounds, fascinating. I guess there's, a, there's a possibility of, Know, unicorn trajectory companies being able to attract that top tier talent. So on the, how, you looked at that with the research, whether it was causal or whether it was like, actually these were the most exciting companies. Of course they could attract amazing talent and the ones that didn't do so well, could attract the amazing talent.

[00:20:29] Jos: Yeah, no, it's a good, it's a good point. and then something that I wanted myself. as the years go on, obviously the brand gets bigger. They raise more money they're just in a different position, but even early on, even between series zone, series B, I think on average, there was three or four, more.

[00:20:49] People added to the leadership team with significant experience, before series B in the unicorn companies, as it were in the samples, something [00:21:00] like that. So there were quite significant disparities even quite early on. you know, my natural habitat is more, you know, believing in the founder team and the early team.

[00:21:09] And, and I still believe that. but I think the best teams are a combination

[00:21:13] Hector: That's really interesting. And yeah, I think that there must be some founders who slightly take some encouragement or they need that sort of confidence building to think, yes, we are a company go out and attract the very best talent. And maybe some people just don't quite have that. And that's encouraged.

[00:21:31] James: So I found deserved before worried about overspending and burning up the runway with expensive senior hires. But actually I know from my own experience, when we invested in the best people, it made everything else tick, and then not allow us to, if we needed to go and raise more money, if we needed to, because everything was going in the right direction.

[00:21:52] Whereas the lot of founders go into this kind of running. Fallacy of not wanting to spend it too quickly and sort of just blustering along. [00:22:00] then they can't raise more money and that's where they die. And they blame the market for not being able to raise more money. And for that, so calendars should be where, you know, I think you're raising money for a reason, which is to get the best people in to deliver on the vision. And sometimes you've just got to go and make those.

[00:22:20] Jos: Yeah. And, and, you know, selectively, um, you do need to try to manage the cash. Um, but I think, you know, something that we look for certainly series a or particularly more so serious basis is the founder of the founding team's ability to attract to one, to attract and then to attract.

[00:22:40] You know, world-class people who have had the experience who, you know, they have, they have no right to be able to attract at the stage that they're at, but they've been able to do it because of the long-term vision that they have. And they're able to not only have the awareness that they need it, but actually the ability to attract those people, bring them into the team to compliment the, uh, you know, the founding team [00:23:00] or the early, the additive for the business.

[00:23:02] So I think it's, it's definitely, uh, it's definitely important.

[00:23:07] Hector: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:09] James: So you invested in clouds and how are things changing within the cloud space? And then what has COVID impact been on cloud generally, in which industry you may be surprised by as moved over or transition to more cloud based systems.

[00:23:26] Jos: When the first lockdown happened, I think like a lot of VCs are like, at a lot of people in any industry. You know, we, we, uh, we tried to figure out what was going on. We were very much in sort of emergency mode. Um, everyone was worried about exactly what the impact would be.

[00:23:44] We have some companies who needed emergency funding or who were in the middle of funding. Completing their funding. And so there was quite a lot of sort of short term panic and short-term issues to deal with. And I think we came together and, and handled that pretty well. [00:24:00] But once we stuck our head above the parapet and thought and really thought about it and saw some of the, the wider trends or maybe the, uh, you know, the, the medium to longer term trends emerging, we realized that.

[00:24:14] That COVID would be, uh, would be a real kind of catalyst for our, for our industry, because you know, that it's, it's easy sometimes to cause we're so out there on the, on the cutting edge. Cause that's, you know, that that's the market that we're in. We're trying to find, um, you know, companies of the future who, uh, who are doing new and interesting things.

[00:24:36] Sometimes you don't realize that actually, you know, the mainstream market that SAS SAS is. 20% of the overall software industry, for example. And so there's still a huge amount of, of, um, software and applications being used on premise. And there's a lot of industries. There's a lot of, very much to the black guard industries or industries sort of partway through that transition.

[00:24:58] And [00:25:00] it was almost like imposing as sort of a forced sort of 30 day trials at 60 day trial for a huge range of SAS applications. And companies were kind of forced into that. 'cause, it was a, it was, uh, a situation that, that really shined a light on the benefits of cloud based software, which is, you know, you can, you can access it and use it from anywhere from any location using any device.

[00:25:26] Um, and, uh, so, you know, it's absolutely perfect for remote work. And, um, and, and enabling people to communicate and collaborate and just to work effectively no matter where they are. So I think it has been, and, and, and the SAS, the SAS and FinTech, and, you know, any sort of cloud based software markets were growing well anyway.

[00:25:48] And then, you know, that the lockdowns came along and I think it just acted as a further catalyst. So, um, I think that the, the latest research that I've seen. Gardener where, [00:26:00] uh, predicting that SAS, SAS would overtake on premise software by 2030, by which time the whole market would be worth more than a trillion dollars.

[00:26:09] And I think the latest research is that Sasol go through 50% of the market by 20, 25. And so, you know, and I still think that I still don't think the impact's been fully understood cause it's still going on. But I think that. Yeah. You know, that sass becoming the dominant form factor becoming more than 50% of the market has been brought forward by several years.

[00:26:30] For sure. Um, because I think once you go into the cloud and you realize that actually it works really, really well and there was some very distinct benefits to it, advantages to it. Um, particularly for, you know, supporting remote sort of virtual work environments, you know, there's no going back. Um, and so I think generally it has been, um, it has been a real tailwind for our industry.

[00:26:55] Um, and, um, you know, I, I think that, that, that, you know, w we [00:27:00] feel really excited about that, but at the same time, um, it has brought a lot more money into the industry. A lot more competition into the industry, you know, costs, particularly for people, um, you know, the war for talent and the costs of talent, it just country, the roof.

[00:27:14] And so there's real challenges out there. But it's certainly, um, you know, exciting times to, to be in the market and, and, you know, w where, and, you know, in some ways, you know, I find it, I find it worrying in other ways. I find it exciting, but we are, we are definitely moving very, very rapidly towards a digital first world and a physical second world.

[00:27:35] And, and, and, um, and COVID has, has et cetera.

[00:27:40] Hector: Super interesting. I just want to, before we closed up, I just want to go back to your accent because we touched on it. And, we didn't go into it very much, but I mean, $700 million is a massive exit and we don't speak to many founders. Who've had an exit by that.

[00:27:55] So I wonder if you could just talk briefly about the kind of psychology behind and. [00:28:00] But behind an exit like that and, the kind of feelings going into it when it happens, it's that kind of incredible amount of emotions, huge joy. And is it an anticlimax afterwards or what are the feelings?

[00:28:13] Jos: it was sort of bizarre to be celebrating and to be. You know, having such a sort of exciting, milestone while the rest of the world was sort of collapsing around us, but it was also a good time to have money and a good time to be investing because almost every asset class was, very, very, depressed in terms of valuations.

[00:28:34] so it all worked out. I mean, it would have been interesting to go public. We felt we had a big enough. be a public company and be that kind of consolidate or rather than the company being acquired. but it wasn't meant to be an end. It worked out great for us.

[00:28:47] And, I think we're all very proud of, the company that we created. And as I said, Postini, which was founded in Silicon valley the same year as message apps. we group message apps into a company of about twice, [00:29:00] that size. And so we're pretty proud that, you know, company from Europe could do that. And, that, and it gave us a lot of belief in ourselves and belief in, the European market, I think to create, a real, you know, outside of.

[00:29:10] James: Yeah. So they, this is a great to hear, those kind of journeys and the highs and lows emotionally of what you have to go through. But, yeah, it's very exciting to, so we always like to end the podcast with just asking our guests, if they were to have dinner with three people, who would they be? so Who would they be for you?

[00:29:27] Jos: it's an interesting question, but I've actually, I've got three old copies of ' 'em time magazine here, which I think would be a good tree. I said the first one is Steve jobs. And then the second one is Muhammad Ali and the third one is Nelson Mandela.

[00:29:46] I think it had the Steve jobs one and it was such a kind of iconic black and white picture on the front of time. So then I sent off for that Mandela and Mohammed Ali, once I got, kind of got all three, but I think that'd be a good combination. [00:30:00] Mohammed Ali was, someone that my dad was obsessed with and, I think just.

[00:30:05] Obsessed with him, from all his kind of stories of, Ali and, getting up in the middle of the night to listen to his fights on the radio and all this amazing sort of romantic scenes that you hear about. so I've read quite a lot of books about him and, there's an amazing documentary about his fight and Zaire against foreman called that quote when we were Kings.

[00:30:25] And it's just this sort of wonderful, magical. Incredibly charming. Funny would have been a great fan, a disruptive unreasonable, but just brilliantly talented and just so, so exciting and everything that he did, but also, held very firmly to his beliefs you know, the sort of definition of charisma, So I'm not sure I'd get word in edgeways, but he'd be good.

[00:30:50] And then, Mandela, So I sort of see him much more sort of gentle and sort of wise and, a different kind of, companion or different [00:31:00] kind of, dinner, guests then, Ali, but, just amazing that, he was able to do what he did with.

[00:31:07] Carrying the betterness and the, hostility that I think almost anyone would have held in his possession and realized that it was all about bringing people together and, understanding different points of view and, not being divisive. And, you know, love beets, hate, that unifying force, that gentle unifying force that he, had and just the massive influence he had in South Africa and the rest of the world. but just seems like, a wise, Yoda kind of figure that I think again, would be, would be fascinating to talk to, and and then, uh, you know, I'd have to have a tech person there.

[00:31:40] And so. Steve jobs, I think would actually be the most difficult person of the three to talk to, I imagine him, with quite a limited attention span and you know, it doesn't suffer fools. And so I think you'd need to be really on point to, engage him otherwise. I think he'd drifted off quite quickly, but just, amazing kind of [00:32:00] perfectionist was really able to, see the future, I think before, before anyone else and, you know, the way he had those sort of big ideas and, just didn't stop until things were absolutely perfect. And that combining that sort of design ethic with, usability, but just having that, sort of ethos and that brand of absolutely no compromise, I think takes a very, very special kind of person.

[00:32:23] and someone that has had such an influence on that, tech world, and all of our lives, where the devices that we have in our pockets, you know, transform so many industries really. So, yeah, again, another fascinating figure. So I think that.

[00:32:37] James: Yeah, well, it's a incredible line up.

[00:32:40] Absolutely. Top notch line up. So yeah. Thank you very much. thank you so much for coming on riding unicorns and telling us your story. Just it's been a pleasure to have you. and yeah, it's great to hear all your advice for the founders and some of the trials and tribulations of being a founder, installing a company, everything.

[00:32:57] So thanks again for coming on.

[00:32:59] Jos: Great. [00:33:00] Okay. Well, thanks guys. It was, it was great to be on nice John, the chef.

[00:33:03] Thanks for listening to if you haven't already please like, and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. If you want to receive episodes direct to your inbox, go to riding unicorns dot sub stack.com and subscribe on there as well.

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