Michelle Kennedy, Founder & CEO @ Peanut

Michelle Kennedy is the co-founder & CEO of social media app, Peanut. The former Badoo and Bumble executive used her experience in the social space to launch Peanut, which since 2017 has connected over 2.7 million mothers and helped them find advice and connect with other women on all manner of topics including pregnancy, childbirth and menopause. 

Michelle sat down with us to discuss how she managed the transition from lawyer to entrepreneur in such a quick time frame. We also dive deep into the operational side of the business and go onto learn how the team was able to build out its platform. Finally we discuss the plans for the future and how Michelle is able to find a balance between appeasing legacy users and implementing new features, which will attract new members. 

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Transcript

James: [00:00:00] Welcome to riding unicorns. The podcast about growth startups. I'm James Pringle and I'm a technology entrepreneur and investor and the founder of Pringle capital. My co-host is Hector Mason. Hector as a partner at B2B investor episode one ventures. Our mission is to uncover what it takes to build a unicorn business.

For season three, we're speaking to some of the best founders, many from unicorn companies and asking them about their journey, operational insight, tips, and lessons they've learned along the way.

Today's episode is with Michelle Kennedy, founder and CEO of peanut. Peanut is the app connecting women throughout all stages of motherhood. They've raised over $17 million from top investors, such as Felix capital. Greycroft and index ventures. We discussed the meaning of community, a very hot buzzword in the veteran space right now, customer acquisition, [00:01:00] fundraising, hiring, and much more.

Another great episode from a founder, building an important company. That's having a big impact on women's lives. Let's get started.

James: Hi Michelle. Thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to writing unit.

Michelle: thanks so much for having.

James: So, Michelle, with season three, we're asking all of our brilliant founders that are coming on. What does entrepreneurship mean to you?

Michelle: I think entrepreneurship means taking risks to solve a problem that no one else has solved yet straight to the short and sweet.

Hector: Very very concise. We love that. What inspired you to stop peanut?

Michelle: So peanut really, came from a combination of personal experience and what I was building at the time. I would like to say that I don't think I was a natural born entrepreneur. I think. I Did things that had hustle in my life and I had to hustle for them, but I wouldn't say that I'm [00:02:00] necessarily a natural risk-taker I trained as a lawyer.

So, our appetite for risk is generally relatively low. We assess the risk and then decide or advise people not to do it. and I think entrepreneurship is a bit like see the risk and do it anyway. so it's definitely something that I kind of learnt and grew to. appreciate and understand. And now I can't remember that woman who didn't take risks and I can't remember that mindset, but I know that I certainly didn't have the same appetite for risk that I do today, nor some of the founders that I meet today I started peanut because I was working in the dating industry. I was deputy CEO at Purdue, and we built what became Bumble and I was on the board of Bumble. So, I was building these like really amazing, exciting. best in class products to connect people romantically. And actually it wasn't even so much about the connection of a romantic or otherwise.

It was more around, can we make [00:03:00] this look fun, make it interactive. It's like kind of feel like a game. Is there a brand message that I can associate with this product that will resonate? So it was this whole world and spectrum. Building a product from kind of bigger vision right down to the detail of is that the right icon to represent that part and everything in between.

I loved it. in my personal life, I just had myself. at the time that we were working on Bumble. And so I was kind of building this amazing product. And then in my real life, like going home to search forums or Facebook groups, and, just felt this huge disconnect that like my personal life was so unconnected to what I was building professionally.

Also like if that was my experience, what about all the women who were coming behind me? Right. They were going to have even higher expectations that these products would be beautiful and intelligent and slick. And yet there, I was like using a forum that I wouldn't use for any other part of my life, by [00:04:00] the way.

And then it's like the most important part of my life. I'm not sure I'll take that random. I dare and try that for my kid. So it was such a weird place. And I felt that there was this huge opportunity from a business perspective, it just felt like a desert, right. There was just no innovation in the space.

And so I felt like a lot of the innovation to do with, kids and babies was. On the children, a crib that will rock your kid to sleep or a bottle that wouldn't have give them wind or a pram that will fold or whatever it might be, but it was really nothing to do with the experience of the woman.

and so that was the starting point. Can I build something which will connect women, via an app. And then from there it just grew into something so much more around, can we make women's lives better by helping them find community? And support, from other women who are experiencing the same thing as them.

And can we do it in a way which, enables them to feel safe and to trust the platform that we've built [00:05:00] and to make sure that there is nothing to. I described it yesterday as there's nothing too gross for peanut and someone laughed. And I was like, I think it's true. Like, there's nothing on peanut where anyone's going to be like, oh, TMI there, no such thing as TMI and female, like, we love it.

but for peanut, where were those conversations happening? I honestly don't know. So that was the kind of starting point for it. And that's why we.

Hector: Just something you said at the beginning that I thought was interesting and I'm already going off script and James is about to ask his question, but I'm going to dive in anyway. it's the part, I mean, going from, you know, job as a lawyer to becoming an entrepreneur, how did you. get out your comfort zone to make that change?

And how was it while you were, you know, really out of your comfort zone at the stop?

Michelle: So, I had started, as legal counsel for Purdue. So that was kind of my entry point. And, and giving him too much credit. But the honest answer of pushing me out of my comfort zone was the founder of Purdue, Andre.[00:06:00] it's one of the most unusual people I think I've ever met and he thinks about things in a different way.

And it makes you think about things in a different way. And I started to question everything. Yeah. Why do I think that that's the right way? Or why do we have to do it like that? You're right. Why can't we copy what gaming the doing or why can't we use that tool? That's actually meant for, um, someone to get a ringtone on their phone.

Why can't we use that short code to monetize our product? Like he was always pushing. and really never accepted no ever as an answer. And I think that made me always feel like, okay, the answer isn't no, it's like find another way. so I do think it was being around that mindset that pushed me out of my comfort zone.

And also like, I'm sure like loads of other founders have told you, but there's this massive full. if you've been an executive and then you go to be a founder, because all of a sudden there are new people, right? you've come from running a big company. There's an accounts department and there's a marketing team and you've got a [00:07:00] BI team.

And then you start your own company. It's like, I am the team. And I pay my own invoices at the same time as I'm stuffing envelopes, as the same time, I'm reaching out to someone to try and get them to do a partnership with us. Like there is no one else. It is just you. And that really is quite the humble.

But nothing better than to get your hustle on and just think, right. Well, you know, I want to build what I used to run. I want to build it for myself, and a mindset which was no is just not really an option

James: yeah, really interesting. It's amazing. How many of the successful. I can so clearly see the previous experience being so valuable into what they're doing today. And I suppose it shouldn't be that surprising, but it's still a recurring theme that people have, have had a directly relevant experience before doing that kind of successful business.

and you were working in companies that were building communities really, and now you're building a community and community is a word, [00:08:00] which is. Very broadly now within tech. So what does community mean to you and to people?

Michelle: The buzzword, right. Loves it at the moment. The truth of the matter is before. It's really hard because what you're building is authentic, meaningful connections between people. And so you can't manufacture that you can't artificially create that either you've created a platform or a safe space, or an in real life space where there is something that connects you, or there isn't, but, the more.

Ways in which you facilitate people creating what we call strong ties. The more likely it is that you're creating this meaningful community. So for peanut, a community and meaningful connections on peanut are really about. Do I use peanut and feel like I came for one thing, but I'm actually staying because there's this whole other world here that I didn't know existed, whether that's because there are women having conversations in live audio, whether it's because there are groups about [00:09:00] everything I could ever imagine joining and law, is it because I just can't see like reading and engaging in something like, what are those moments where I maybe came to find a friend, but I stayed because of the well that's around.

There is no concept on peanut of collecting followers or collecting likes. I don't care how many, connections you've got as long as you, the connections you have are meaningful.

And they mean that you have a relationship, both with the people that you've connected with, but also with the platform so that you want to keep coming back. let's look at all the communities that exist.

Let's now take those features We imagined gender from a feminine economy. So if it's not about like, And it's not about followers and it's not about, I have a verified profile. You don't and I shout you, listen, then what is it about? And for us, it's about collaboration and care.

It's about making sure that you don't necessarily get a hundred responses to your post, but you get two that are the [00:10:00] most meaningful responses. And that means that women create more. Content increases. So it's really about if we've redefined a feminine economy and community is based around that then, hopefully what we're always building and we strive to always build is the best place for women to spend time.

Hector: I think it's super interesting, actually, it kind of, while you're talking that it made me think of next door as well, which, which you probably know about. And it's like, and then that made me think, okay, well maybe there are sort of two things that people will come back to a platform for. Maybe one of them is an addiction and we might associate it with Instagram and Facebook, but maybe the other is real, like, meaning.

and that kind of two ways to get very engaged customers and, yeah, you're integrate place where you're running a business, that is, attracting users through meaning.

Michelle: we know the impact of the appreciation for. a photo or a post or a tweet that was fun. Like we know what happens when you just build [00:11:00] on that and I'm not slighting it, it has a place, but peanut really isn't about living your best life. I hope you are living your best life, but honestly, that's not what Peanut's about.

It's about come and be yourself and find other people who want to be themselves and, find shared experience. And from that perspective, the reason you return is not because you just need another hit it's because you want to find more connections or you want to find at deeper connections, I should say, or you want to understand that a bit more, or because where do you go to discuss some of these topics and issues?

And, I think I would encourage anyone who's thinking about building community to really pull it all back. What is it that they will get from your community and your platform that they can't get elsewhere? For us, it was always about safety and trusted women with shared experience. If they can create community off the back of another platform, because the tools [00:12:00] are going to work for them, maybe you don't need to, maybe you can build something else, but, if the infrastructure and the tooling that you want to build is different, that's when it becomes really exciting because you're not just building more of this.

Hector: Yeah, I think I actually haven't thought much about this before about that sort of element of community, but it really is fascinating. And I think, once you've got it, An incredibly strong mode and people are not going to leave because people associate the sort of personal connections with people on the platform with the platform.

And it's like, you know, this is, this is now where I go to have connection. so I think, yeah, really interesting.

Michelle: Yeah, they built a relationship. But they also build the relationship with the platform. Like there's nowhere, I'd rather be, but peanut to talk about this particular topic, or to ask this particular question or to make this friend or to join this group, like, that's what we're striving for rather than.

There's literally nowhere else I can go. So I'll have to do a Facebook group or there's nothing else I can do. So I'll have to [00:13:00] create a discord server and I am a huge fan of discord. I think they will. What they've done is incredible. And, you know, we all work in my huge admiration for, that product and that platform. so really, you know, We're taking some of that. And we're, thinking about how do we do that in a feminine economy and in a peanut way

James: Yeah. I think the reason that founders and investors are so obsessed with community is that bit, that Hector mentioned it being a moat because as we have more, no code platforms and standardization around how we build apps and things like that, the technical thing becomes less of a moat.

So you have to go to that extra level. You know, you can build it through, community, which I think is really interesting. Lots of great stuff in there for founders to think about when they're thinking about their own, why and community

Hector: we sort of touched on what community, once you've got the platform up and running, you have users. but with all these things, it's really difficult getting the first users and. have a pretty tough [00:14:00] chicken and egg problem where who's going to come to your platform. If there's no one on it, to give them connection or meaningful interactions or, knowledge, how did you guys tackle the, getting people onto the platform initially creating value so that more people would come.

Michelle: That can be really, really hard, particularly if you've got no track record in the space or it's not seen as a particularly glamorous space, for example, I'd gone from building dating products where it was actually cool at the time I left dating, but when I started it was like, people really felt like it was awkward and go to show it's for dating platforms.

So, It didn't have the same, kind of profile that it does. and I'm going to start with new moms. There was a very well-known well-established, UK brand, or platform I should say. And everyone said, oh, That platform do that. I was like, have you ever used that platform? Nope. No, that isn't what that does.

and so, you know, it, when it's [00:15:00] not particularly glamorous, there is this thing. Um, and, and now of course, you know, four years on, everyone wants to talk about motherhood and it's the stigma around it has completely changed. And so we move because that's great. We've, we've changed conversation around this life stage.

What about menopause? That's the next one? No one wants to talk about that. That's awkward and there's nothing there. And so we move and we push. and, and so that's how I think about. Building some of those foundations and you have to have a thick skin, like not everyone wants to help you. I spoke to loads of admins of Facebook groups and they'd be like, yeah, I mean, I like the idea and you know, and now they come to us and they want to migrate groups.

So, resilience, I suppose, and, uh, hacking out a way to test the mechanics of what you're thinking of building doesn't necessarily mean.

Hector: Yeah. And practically in those very early days. When you had a platform when you had some sort of an MVP where you're just like, please, please, [00:16:00] please go on to the platform and post a question and please, please go on the platform and art to people's questions.

Just help me get go. Was that the approach?

Michelle: Great question. So we actually didn't start with that part of the community. we had to start with a baseline of users. So the baseline of users that we had was through what we call discovery, but effectively the, uh, friendship finding. So this wiping element of peanut. So we started with a tool.

If you think about building community and it's like, come for the tool, stay for the community. We had to think what the tool was and your tool might be, you know, anything that you know in your field, but it's really about, I'll give a really outside of peanut example, but it's something that I use daily when you're trying to work out like how to calculate what the equivalent of a full-time salary would be for a contract.

For example, you go onto Google and you search and you get one of these calculators and then you use that [00:17:00] calculator and then ultimately it's there because they want to take you into the world of the accountancy firm. That's built it or whatever it is. And they're thinking about SEO. So it's effectively, like, what is your kind of tool in ours was we can find your friends, we can find your connection.

So we had a baseline of users to kind of bring them. and then when we launched community, yeah. I mean, you must bootstrap it, right. It would be not very thoughtful to launch it day one with lots of empty screens and, and asking people to go and create, whether that means that you get the people who are the power users.

Platform like who are the people who are most engaged and say to them, listen, will you test this part of the platform where you create content, where you let us know of any bugs? Will you let us know if you like the ideation of it? How could we make it better? Those again, those women are invested and they want to feed back and give back into the loop.

and then from there it grows, but. assume no one would be going into this like day one with an empty screen, having not [00:18:00] taken any feedback and hoping for the best. Cause I, I fear that that wouldn't go there.

James: Yeah. Very human approach. Really. It's great. so back towards you a little bit as a founder, what do you think are your biggest strengths and weaknesses as a founder? And how does that shape your thinking of how you build a team around you?

Michelle: I think my strength. Don't get determination. It hasn't been the easiest ride and people always assume that it ha oh, you've had great press. What? Because you think that falls into one's lap. Of course not. You, work and you hustle for it, or, oh, you've got amazing investors. What, because every single person I met wrote me a check.

Of course they didn't like, I think just don't get determination and a desire. To educate people on why there is an alternative way to build social. And there is an alternative mindset and that really just takes absolute, like determination and [00:19:00] resilience. the knock backs are multiple and intense.

And when you feel very personally aligned with the product that you're building, they can feel very personal as well. but yeah. Being able to just get back up and do it all over again the next day. I think that's probably one of my. Strengths. And then the second strengths, which I I'm guessing, like loads of people have said to you before, but always hiring people who are smarter than me.

Right? Like I'm definitely the most stupid person in team female. And, long may it continue? people that work. Our team and not just completely passionate about what we build, but they are completely obsessed with how we build it, to make it scalable, to make it, have a market differentiator, using best-in-class tech, using best-in-class UI.

Like it really is an obsession and, I love and respect the team for that. And I think that's been a huge asset to where we've got to, in terms of, my week. Gosh. I mean, I've got so many, I [00:20:00] don't even know where to begin. I really wanted and still want, but I really obsess about the culture of peanuts and what we build as a product being reflected in the culture of the team.

um, when I look at the leader that I was in my past life versus the leader that I am now, I hardly recognize myself, right. I used to be very old school and, know, there was probably quite a lack of empathy in my old days, which, whether it's a combination of what we build and the appreciation I have for the team, And the users and the product we're building or all of those things.

coupled with a bit of being a mom, I definitely, um, from a culture perspective, someone who is very informal, I share everything from the board decks to the fundraising decks. there's no one in the team that can ask me a question that I won't give the answer to. and, uh, Question how long I can continue in that vein as we [00:21:00] continue to grow.

So that's probably a weakness. and I definitely, I'm an over talker. I'm trying to get better at it, but like I overshare all the time. I'm not very good with silence. So if there's a silence, I have to talk to fill it. So on that note, I'll stop.

Hector: That's really interesting. We always like getting under the skin of founders and understanding, you know, what, drives them and how they, I suppose, perceive themselves. So it's always, good to get people's on some of those questions, but you did touch briefly on just that, you know, product and things.

and I really like, hearing how people, they have, they built an MVP, they get some initial customers with a product that usually. Particularly proud of it. It doesn't look great. Maybe it doesn't have many features. And then gradually, you know, the product matures, the vision matures, you hire more people with more ideas and you want the, product to change and the offering to change.

And I wonder how, how you guys think about product and how to develop new features and improve the product while not alienating [00:22:00] the early users. And whether there ever been points where you've wanted to make changes and you've thought this would be so much better. But some people, particularly existing users, just aren't going to understand, how to use it or why it's there.

so have there been sort of difficult product decisions and how do you manage product changes, to reflect where you want the product to go.

Michelle: Great question. And I think the answer to that in terms of products, Whoever your power users are your early users that kind of stick with you through thick and thin. Oftentimes it's the hardest to make big changes for them because they've fallen in love with what you've built and they feel like a deep association with that now.

Put that in a community context and actually the risk you run is that if you only build with that user set in mind, what you're building is a very niche product, because then not representative of, gen pop and then not representative of probably your, [00:23:00] potential addressable market. So, that it's hardest for that.

but it's most challenging for you as a product team to only build all that. because you never want to be in a position where someone says you've built a niche community and that's great, but it can never scale. so in terms of peanut and how we've kind of thought about that. There are things that we've had to change, that we have migrated.

There are things that we've taken a stand on that we didn't want to build from. So for example, if you think about all the existing social networks that we all use every day, that all based off of social graph, right? I know James Jameson has Hector and so on. and that doesn't really work that social graph in the context of social discussions.

Because with social discovery, we're not talking about who you're already connected to. We're talking about finding new connections for you and finding that new opportunity. So we needed to reinvent an equivalent. What's our proxy of. Social graph. And the proxy that we've built is a topics and interest graph [00:24:00] effectively.

But I know that you interact with this type of content. You like this type of topic. Let me show you more of that. And you make connections with people based on that. so that has been like quite a, deliberate move for us. And, you know, we see other players now doing it. We know that Twitter now are building something, equivalent, but it does mean that, We were kind of already kind of out there building that and making steps to build it.

And that hasn't always been easy. We have an enormous amount of content on peanuts by over 25% of our monthly is our content creators. So it's a real kind of unusual position to have so much. Because of that, it means that, we have to make sure everyone's contacting, gets seen everyone's content gets an interaction or an engagement.

and so Making sure everyone's content is surfaced. and so that was a deliberate move to build and invest in the tech architecture of that and reflect that.

And we're [00:25:00] still learning how to reflect that from a product perspective. And I think you never stop learning how to do that. And we have, a brilliant new VP of product who joined us last year, who was really helped us articulate some of the product. Into the product and particularly some of the tech infrastructure into the product as well.

How do we demonstrate that? it doesn't mean that we don't make mistakes in what we build, by the way we make mistakes, like all the time. and probably a good example of that was over COVID we built video calling because women were asking us for it. So we built. And the truth of the matter is there was nothing that women wanted less during the pandemic to look at their own face for more hours of the day.

they were the most time, poor demographic. we were looking after, Everyone at home. You've got kids who are homeschooling. You've got your extended family. You're making sure that your father indoors had his vaccination or has got shopping. You're trying to work, run your business, do whatever it is from home [00:26:00] or run your household.

You've got people everywhere. And then. We were expecting you to sit down and have a video call no one wants to do that. plus we've probably been on zoom all day and the novelty of the zoom queers, et cetera, has completely blown up. so what we built post that is live audio pods, so like dropping conversations and, still giving acknowledgement and a way for women to synchronously connect, which is what they really meant.

But without having to look at themselves and the success of that has just been astronomical. You know, women are spending over three and a half thousand hours a day creating live audio and peanut, and that's just that one feature on the app. before they've even got into the rest of it. So, I think it's really not always about listening to.

Direct instruction from your user. I would like X it's more about the sentiment behind it. What they meant was I'd love to find someone to chat with now who's around right now. They meant synchronous. They didn't mean, please [00:27:00] let me have yet another way to have to look at myself all day.

Hector: Sorry. Interesting and so hard to do that. Every time, because people often don't know what they are really asking for what they want, but I think it's kind of miraculous that you landed on this. Awesome. Like, clubhouse style, drop-in podcasting.

Michelle: Yeah, but how often do you, like, you think you want something to eat and then you get it and you're like, oh, actually, that wasn't exactly what I was looking for. Like it's human nature. it's just about being dogged enough to like, unpack what that means and how it articulate. I think as soon as we nailed and really focused in on the fact that what they meant was synchronous connection, where the rest is easy, then it's just about how do we visualize that?

How do we make it appealing? How do we make sure it surfaces? And, honestly, it's one of the features I'm most proud of on peanut, because I love it. I spend hours myself. I love, I don't have to say anything. You can just be par. It [00:28:00] makes you feel. You're part of a group of friends, but I can do it when I'm working.

I can do it when the kids are in bed or whatever. something really humanizing about the human voice, where you guys know it's why everyone listens to the podcast. Right. But there's something about like hearing people's voices, which makes you feel like, ah, and it's not the clubhouse kind of, I speak you, listen, it's a discussion.

It's an interaction. It's a conversation. and. Peanut has always been about conversations. And so it's just another medium for facilitating that.

James: Yeah, really, really interesting. And Michelle slight quickfire. So if you could have one tip on fundraising, one tip on hiring and one tip on how to manage a book. What would they be? Some fairly quick fire answers. So fundraising hiring and managing a board.

Michelle: Any days. I think I took institutional money too early. and that's a real [00:29:00] juxtaposition to, what I would usually say because I've, I have very strong feelings about a friends and family round. When people, if you don't have friends who casually write 50 grand checks, like where do you go? I didn't have those friends.

but I think that there are amazing angel networks out there. And if you can get involved in those angel networks, you should, institutional money puts you in. A very, particular path, which is great. but you should feel able to choose when the right time for you is, and if you're still doing a bit of exploratory work, if you're still working out your product market fit, if you're still working out your wider vision, you don't necessarily need to be on that path.

can do that through, through an angel network. So that's that don't take institutional too soon. hiring, never lose someone because of money. One of my board members told me this if they're really great for your business, Like stretch, work out, find a way to get them. Like never let it be that you couldn't pay them enough that made them walk.

There will always be something. Cause then they'll fall in love with you and your [00:30:00] business and what you're doing. Never let that be the thing. Managing your board. You know, I'm still learning that. I think there was an amazing three. On Twitter somewhere. and it was a woman who ended up being like pretty early on in Twitter. and she worked at, the VC, one of the VCs that had invested in Twitter and she was at Twitter a lot.

And basically they started giving her work to do. and so they were giving her work to do, and eventually they ended and really, they were testing her. Right. And then they hired her and. I think there is definitely value in putting your bore to work for you.

Like they want, they invested in you because they want to help you grow. So you can put them to work for stuff that you haven't got time to do. Or you're not very good at the board are there to work for you too. So I think getting the most from them is.

Hector: That's epic. I really think we could talk for hours, but we haven't really got hours. so now start to wrap up with the dinner party guests game, which we always do with our guests, where, if you were to hold a,[00:31:00] business dinner, who would you invite? Which three people they can be dead or alive.

Michelle:

Okay. So the first one I'm going for is Oprah. Cause explanation for that. So my second one was Lisa Stansfield, I feel like she should meet Oprah. the third one is going to be, my mom. Because I think that she would love to meet over and Lisa Stansfield too. I'm so not very businessy, but, really, it's just a chance for us to meet people that we.

Hector: Yeah, I think that's, gonna be a great dinner. Michelle, we have thoroughly enjoyed having you on the, on the show and actually probably this episode, more than some others, we've really dug into the kind of operational side and heard some very good practical tips on, you know, take community business from, from zero to one.

And then, onwards from there and we. Various practical and actionable tips on fundraising, on hiring on, on lots of other things. And just more generally, it's been great to hear your story moving from being a lawyer, [00:32:00] to being a risk-taking entrepreneur, has been inspiring and I'm sure is, very inspiring for lots of our listeners.

so thanks so much for coming on the show.

Michelle: Thank you for having me.

James: Thanks, Michelle.

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